*UPDATED WITH BETTER PICS* - So, my car has a medium-sized leak...

"RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars" (rallydarkstrike) 07/25/2020 at 15:16 • Filed to: Leaks

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EDIT #2 - Just took some clearer pics...I don’t see any leaks from above when looking down on the PS rack, but in the first pic, you can see the wetness at the bottom-left of the pic under the subframe where the leak is dripping from...that’s the subframe the PS rack is mounted in:

...but when looking down on the PS rack from above, there are no obvious leaks that I can SEE? It’s hard to see the other side of the PS rack though...

FYI a lot of the ‘wetness’ you see is not wetness at all, but a reflection of the light off the waxy/sticky undercoating stuff the garage uses when they undercoat under my car and the engine bay. Yay for living in rusty Atlantic Canada! :/
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EDIT #1 - Original story below, but adding this photo for context...

This is an unrelated pic from when I had done an oil change awhile back in September, but the red circle is roughly where it’s dripping from now based on the spot on the cardboard I slid under the car earlier today:

Original post:
Coming from near the rear of the engine bay. We noticing it on the ground nuder the car after I moved it. I’d put a piece of cardboard under the car when I got home this afternoon and just went out to check it to know for sure where it’s coming from.

Oil level SEEMS OK? So I don’t think it’s that. Brake fluid level is fine, coolant level seems fine.

Whatever it is is staining our asphalt driveway a lot, so I’m thinking oil or power steering fluid....I DO see that my power steering reservoir is reading ‘Min’ atm and the last time I remember checking it, it was at more like half, so thinking it’s likely a power steering leak...?

I touched the drips on the cardboard....it seems to be a fairly thin, but ‘slick’ liquid....maybe with a slight brownish-red tinge to it? What are yout thoughts Oppo?

What are the chances this means I am going to need a whole new power steering rack...

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 13:14

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Dab it with a white paper towel or piece of printer paper to get a fix on the colour, then work from there. Just keep in mind the fluid may get contaminated by other previously leaked fluids on the way down. 

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 13:15

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You should buy my forte!!! Lol

Dogsatemypants > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/25/2020 at 13:34

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Wanna buy a volvo with that sweet forte money?

atfsgeoff > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 13:36

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anything with a red tinge is likely ATF, so look for either power steering or transmission line leak.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Dogsatemypants 07/25/2020 at 13:38

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I'm already committed to a JL unfortunately. Later in the year

Dogsatemypants > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 13:43

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That sounds kinda like psf or trans fluid. I would lean more towards a seal giving way on the rack or maybe a pinhole in a soft line. I would try sucking out what you have in the reservoir currently, refilling with fresh fluid and a conditioner additive, and adding some leak detection dye. Have a helper turn the wheels to full lock on both sides and shut it down. Check for new spots and run the light over it. Come back in an hour and check for spots again.

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 13:46

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You’ll have to actually get under and try to look. Sometimes to actually see where it’s from needs a good clean with degreaser and then check after a day or 2 for fresh fluid. Leaks drip down so you have to follow them up which can be a pain if they drip on wires, longitudinal structure, or pressurized displacement.  

If it’s red-ish and at the back then I’d lean towards perhaps  ATF which could be transmission or power steering.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > atfsgeoff 07/25/2020 at 13:47

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M anual trans, so wouldn’t be from the transmission....pretty sure it’s power steering fluid...

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Dogsatemypants 07/25/2020 at 13:48

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May try that, but not sure if I’ll have time ! I do have an oil change appointment this coming week, so I might just get him to look into it then...

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/25/2020 at 13:49

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As I’m saving for a house, I’ll give you $5 for it including delivery :P

Longtime Lurker > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 13:51

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Sounds like power steering fluid (red), I'd bet on a hose leaking before a rack though. Also worth considering is when the last time the fluid was changed or flushed, as it sounds dirty.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 07/25/2020 at 13:56

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Just tried that....hard to tell....still a reddish-brown. Still pretty sure it’s PSF based on where it’s dripping. It’s dripping from the rear of the engine bay.

This is an unrelated pic from when I had done an oil change awhile back, but the red circle is roughly where it’s dripping from based on the spot on the cardboard I slid under the car earlier today:

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com 07/25/2020 at 14:00

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Can’t be transmission as it’s a manual so would use gear oil. I’m pretty sure it’s PS F just based on where the drip is coming from onto the cardboard I slid under the car earlier today. There’s no leaks near or around the Power Steering pump, but the drips seem to line up pretty well where the rack would be located...

This is an unrelated pic from when I had done an oil change awhile back (September), but the red circle is roughly where it’s dripping from based on the spot on the cardboard I slid under the car earlier today:

I don’t have time to dig my ramps out and get the car up on the ramps in the next day or two, but I do have another oil change booked at the garage next week, so I’ll get him to look into it then, I think!

atfsgeoff > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:04

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Lots of manual transmissions actually use ATF for fluid, check your owner’s manual

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Longtime Lurker 07/25/2020 at 14:06

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I’ll be honest, it’s probably been quite awhile since it was changed/flushed...I can’t even remember the last time, off the top of my head. Maybe I’ll get him to do that as well...there’s also a squeal from the power steering belt at full lock side to side sometimes...

As for the leak, it’s definitely not RED red, but does have a reddish tinge. I’ve got a manual trans, so I know it’s not ATF from a transmission . The brake reservoir is right on ‘Max’ and the brakes seem fine, so I don’t think it’s a brake fluid leak.

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:10

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I would think it’s the rack but until actually tracked down; you won’t know.

I also should have clarified that some  gear oil can be rosé in colour (I run redline mt90 that’s a tad pinkish ).

MM54 > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:16

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Red/brown sounds like ATF which is often used for power steering systems. If it’s like the 4Runner, one of the lines probably rusted where it goes into the rack. Shouldn’t be expensive to replace a line, but may be a pain in the ass.

To assist in locating the leak, put the car up on ramps and clean everywhere it may be coming from underneath very well (plenty of brakleen or similar). Once it’s dry and somewhat fumigated, start the car and look to see wherefrom the liquid is coming.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > atfsgeoff 07/25/2020 at 14:20

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Oh yeah, I’m 99% sure my power steering system uses ATF for f luid without even checking the manual. I was just referring to it repeatedly as ‘power steering fluid’ so that people knew I wasn’t talking about a possible transmission leak because my car has a manual and therefore doesn’t use ATF in that capacity :)

Jayvincent > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:21

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I vote power stee ring fluid based on your description, but it could also be clutch fluid as some manufacturers use brake fluid (clear to yellowish thin fluid) and some use ATF (clear to red fluid) for the clutch master & slave hydraulics. If it’s a slave cylinder leak, you can either rebuild it or replace it pretty inexpensively. But it’s probably power steering, which can be a leak at the pump, or the hoses which go to/from the reser oi r tank and to/from the rack, or the rack seals itself. Usually if the rack seals have failed, it spews a lot of fluid and you lose all power steering intermittently .

Post an update once you have it looked at, we all want to know how it turn s out!

atfsgeoff > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:24

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No I meant that many manual gearboxes themselves are lubricated with ATF and not gear oil. What year/make/model is it?

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com 07/25/2020 at 14:25

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Hmmm...could be gear oil, but I’d think gear oil would be a bit thicker...? This seems like it’s quite thin, though still very slick.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Jayvincent 07/25/2020 at 14:32

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Pretty sure it’s not the clutch...clutch feels fine and I, at least, don’t see any leaks near the clutch slave cylinder for it as that’s easily visible on the transmission.

Sounds like it may not be the rack seals then, which would be a good (and much cheaper!) thing...the fluid definitely isn’t just being flung out of it, it’s definitely just a leak....though I’d say a ‘medium’-to-’bad’ one based on the puddle battlefield that is our driveway...

Mom’s car is the one that is backed in and she’s been only parking over there, so all those leak spots are all Humdrum... :/

...power steering seems to work fine. There’s belt squeal at full lock (which has been there for months), but ONLY at full lock either side. N o odd steering whines, noises or feelings otherwise....the power steering reservoir is at ‘Min’ though, which makes me think it’s been that which is leaking (last time I remember seeing it awhile back it was around half full) ....hopefully just a bad hose! There’s a fair amount of space around the rack on my car, so hopefully repairing that wouldn’t be a huge deal if it is just a hose...

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:34

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Isn’t a house like $40 there?

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:37

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While it’s likely it’s PSF, man that seems far back, unless it’s traveling down a hose. Power steering pressure lines usually have steel ends that tend to rust and leak. It may be at a cooler or something, it’s unlikely it’s the actual pump or rack leaking. 

old-busted-hotness-still-cant-comment > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:37

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Thin and slick is almost certainly ATF. Easy way to check the rack is to squeeze the boots. If they’re plastic boots, give them a jiggle and see how heavy they feel. In extreme cases, ATF will shoot out the end like you’re milking a very sick cow.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:38

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It could be Dot3 or 4 brake fluid? I know it doesn’t have a reddish tinge fresh, but as it gets dirty it will get darker. I would check out your master cylinder and if you have the wherewithal, get underneath and try to follow the brake lines back to the master cylinder and makes sure they’re clean.

A PSF leak may be inconvenient and eventually expensive, but leaking brake lines is something you’ll want to know about ASAP

Khalbali > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 14:45

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Definitelt sounds like power steering fluid, pretty much the same thing as ATF, we used to just use ATF most of the time at the shop I worked in.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 07/25/2020 at 14:51

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Pretty sure it’s not Brake or Clutch fluid (both fed from the same reservoir on my car) - both are working perfectly (at least they feel fine?) and the level in the reservoir for those is spot-on ‘ Max’ and has been that way as long as I can remember lately!

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > MM54 07/25/2020 at 14:51

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I’ll have to see if I can find time to dig out the ramps....though I have an oil change this coming week so I might just get him to look at it while it’s up on the hoist!

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > atfsgeoff 07/25/2020 at 14:58

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2009 Hyundai Accent hatch....pretty sure it uses something like 75w/85 for gear oil and not ATF for the manual trans.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/25/2020 at 14:58

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I wish! Still VASTLY cheaper than they are out there...but I don’t make a lot of money as a substitute teacher :(

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 07/25/2020 at 15:03

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The rack is mounted pretty far back in the MC-gen Accents/JB Kia Rios (they are the same platform) - I just took these pics:

The ‘wetness’ you see in a lot of places in the second pic is actually the sticky waxy undercoating stuff the local garage puts in my engine bay to prevent rust.

The PS pump is mounted high up at the front of the engine, so I can see that easily and don’t see any leaks near the reservoir, pump or higher piping/hoses.

You can see in that top pic the ‘wetness’ under the subframe at the bottom-left...there’s around where the drip is coming from. That’s the subframe that the PS rack is mounted in. I don’t see any obvious leaks from above looking down onto it...?

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > old-busted-hotness-still-cant-comment 07/25/2020 at 15:04

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I’ll go out later on and give that a go and see what happens if I have time! I just updated the post with more pictures above if those help!

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 15:14

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Yeah, I get that. The only reason I can afford something out here is dual income and the fact our first dumpster of a place doubled in value

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Khalbali 07/25/2020 at 15:18

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Yeah, I’m pretty sure I’ve narrowed it down to that....hoping it’s just a hose or pipe though as I’m possibly buying a house soon and a sudden $1500 CAD or more bill to install a new PS rack would be absolute balls...

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/25/2020 at 15:18

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Mind lending your ole buddy ole pal RallyDarkstrike lots of cash? :P

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 15:21

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We just got into our place by the skin of our teeth lol. On paper, it's big numbers, but when it comes to Vancouver property it doesn't mean anything

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/25/2020 at 15:26

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We have a friend in Vancouver who just found out that his wife was cheating on him for several years, that one of ‘ his’ kids is apparently not his own and they just bought a $2,000,000 house :(

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 15:29

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Jeeeeeeezus. That's horrible

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/25/2020 at 15:31

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Yeah...he’s also only in his 40s but has Diabetes with an insulin pump and just had a recent heart attack (like in relation to finding out about his wife/kid) :(

Kindest, funniest guy you’d ever meet....we feel SUPER bad for him :(

onlytwowheels > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 15:44

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I’d start by cleaning all the oil/grease with a Simple Green equivalent, perhaps VB 82. Dry the area as well as possible, then start the car and looks for signs of leaking. Turn steering wheel full left, then full right and look for leaks after each. If it’s coming from the power steering sys tem it should be evident at this point.

Nibby > Khalbali 07/25/2020 at 17:16

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hey are you ATF?

MM54 > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 17:37

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If it’s slow enough that you can still drive without running out of fluid, sounds like a good plan to take a look while on-lift!

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > MM54 07/25/2020 at 18:25

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It’s been leaking as it is for at least a week, so I think it should be OK until the middle of this coming week! It only seems to leak when the car has been running, I think.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 19:25

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If it’s leaking enough to show drips on the ground, replace the rack. Mine is leaking too, but very slowly. Has been for a couple years at this point. Only shows on the crossmember and hasn’t got the reservoir low enough that I need to top it up yet, though I imagine the dealer did. That would be 9 months now. IMO there’s no point replacing it as long as you aren’t having to top it up all the time. But if you’re emptying the reservoir every few days or so, best just replace it. In any case, if it becomes a real issue, the PS pump WILL warn you. Don’t ignore that or the pump is toast.

T BH though, brown-red sounds more like trans fluid. Possible it came from the expansion vent if you got it really hot or it was overfilled.

In other words, shrug emoji... Www.alunkheadwithanopinion.com

pip bip - choose Corrour > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 19:47

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check to see of leaks when wheel turned hard lock while running. might just be the pressure hose

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 07/25/2020 at 21:03

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This started maybe two weeks ago and the reservoir for the PS fluid has dropped from half full to ‘Min’ in that time, so it’s not leaking REALLY quickly, but it’s still leaking fairly quickly. A rack replacement would not be cheap, so I’m really hoping it’s just a pipe/hose...

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > pip bip - choose Corrour 07/25/2020 at 21:06

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As in when holding it at lock to either side? I know my belt squeals at full lock to either side...lol

I got home this afternoon and parked in a different spot that I usually don’t park in and slid some cardboard underneath. Started the car up and looked around, didn’t see any obvious leaks, so got in and turned the wheel lock to lock a few times, then shut it off and went back inside for about 5 mins. Came back out and found a drop on the cardboard. Not sure if the me turning it from lock to lock was part of the reason it dripped that quickly, or what...

pip bip - choose Corrour > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/25/2020 at 21:27

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Check the pressure hose to see if it’s rock hard or pliable 

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > onlytwowheels 07/26/2020 at 07:07

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That’s kindof what I had done by sliding some cardboard underneath. I didn’t clean it first as I didn’t have time yesterday, but I just slid some cardboard underneath, started it and turned the wheel lock to lock a few times. After a minute or two, there was a a large drip down onto the cardboard from back near the power steering rack.

onlytwowheels > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/26/2020 at 12:42

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When the area is cleaned, repeat this process, and the source of fluid loss will reveal itself.

Dogsatemypants > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/27/2020 at 11:42

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Wynn’s power flush for power steering uses a machine to extract and refill the power steering system, there is usually a bottle of detergent and conditioner heavy stuff they add in while sucking out the old crap. They then suck out the detergent blend and replace with atf/psf according to mfr spec. Can be done at most quickie lube type places here in the us.

Dogsatemypants > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/27/2020 at 11:44

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U know you want some 5 cylinder turbocharged Swedish fury.

Dogsatemypants > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/27/2020 at 11:46

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Trying to sell it so I don’t have to move in to it. your offer, though kind, I must decline. I must get a bit more money from the deal to justify the heartbreak.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Dogsatemypants 07/27/2020 at 22:03

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Thanks for the info! :)

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Dogsatemypants 07/27/2020 at 22:05

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:P

In seriousness, sorry to hear it has to go and good luck! :(